Smart choices: Gifted or mainstream schools?
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Welcome occasional blogger Lauren Young, a journalist whose son attends a New York City Universal Pre-K program.
Which is the smarter choice: To send your child to school with a lot of other bright kids, or to place her in a more mixed environment, with students of varied academic achievements? BusinessWeek recently named America’s Best High Schools in conjunction with Great Schools. Plenty of the finalists for the “Best Overall Academic Performance” award are special schools that draw the brightest kids in the area. Indeed, in New York, the top-ranking school on this list is New York City’s own Stuyvesant High School, which serves “academically gifted students” (who also happen to be terrific test-takers).
I understand the lure of gifted programs. But I’m also a firm believer in the notion that a rising tide lifts all boats. When schools pluck the most brilliant kids out of the educational system and lump them together, I think it creates a leadership void for the students who are left behind.
A few years ago, we moved to a neighborhood in Brooklyn because it had the locally zoned elementary school (P.S. 29) with an excellent academic reputation. Since our son began school last fall, I feel much more connected to our community. It’s virtually impossible to walk down the main drag in our neighborhood or go to the playground and not see folks we know from school. That’s why I ultimately opted not to sign up our son for the gifted and talented test. Even if my kid is “G&T,” I don’t want him attending a school miles away from our home. (It’s hard to believe, but not all parents think their children are geniuses, by the way.)
What’s your educational philosophy? Should smart kids be sifted out of the academic system, or is it better to mainstream bright kids with everyone else?
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If you are zoned for PS29, I do understand your saying “I don’t want him attending a school miles away from our home.” However, you are one of the lucky one.
Many family are zoned for “not so fabulous school.”
If you were one of them, I think your perspective to G&T program would be significantly different.
Comment by Anonymous — January 23, 2009 @ 12:36 pm
First, I’d remove the haughty “G&T” label and rebrand it as “High Achievers”. See http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids
Then, when my two-year-old takes the tests and (hopefully) qualifies, I’d keep him in his local public school and group him with other motivated, hard workers whose families value academics. Let him bond with everyone at lunch time and recess. I’ve never seen friendships start after the children have administered IQ tests to each other to ferret out the ones who score more than a standard deviation away from their own ability!
Finally, I’d hope that he shares the wonderful experience of knowing everyone at the school. It seems ideal to go to the local playground over the weekend and blend in instantly. I commuted to Trinity from my digs across the park on the UES and playdates had to be scheduled in advance, thus reducing the time spent overall with my buddies.
I also like Lauren’s idea that the high achievers will be academic leaders amongst their lower-testing peers. I’ll stress over his school and class placement when it’s time to take middle school exams.
Comment by Jack — January 23, 2009 @ 1:06 pm
I’m having my son tested, but that doesn’t mean I would necesarily send him to a gifted program far away from home if he were accepted. So I think you’re making some false assumptions based just on the fact that kids are taking the test. This year you have to apply to even your neighborhood school, with no guarantees that you’ll have a spot for Kindergarten. Many parents are applying to multiple schools and taking the gifted test is seen by most of us as just one more possible option. I also think many parents feel that gifted programs are likely to attract the best teachers, so that’s another factor to consider.
Comment by Anonymous — January 23, 2009 @ 1:24 pm
We decided to opt for a neighborhood school instead of having our son take the test for a gifted program. In retrospect, I think it was the right decision. He seemed reasonably bright but in no way seemed especially gifted in preschool and did not start reading until halfway through first grade. He also was quite shy in those early years and is still an introverted child. Since that time, though, he has made extraordinary academic progress and is now testing several years higher than grade level in nearly all academic areas. We are certainly going to look into the gifted programs for middle school. But if we had put him into a gifted program in kindergarten, I suspect he might have been intimidated by the children whose talents blossomed early and would not have come out of his shell. We have been overall pleased with the teaching and administration of his neighborhood elementary school, though it is sometimes a struggle to make sure they continue to challenge the high achievers.
But there’s a downside: we live in a district with middle-schools that are mostly terrible, so if he does not get into the citywide middle schools, we will have to move. I very much wish for academically challenging middle-schools in the outer boroughs!
Comment by anon — January 23, 2009 @ 1:26 pm
@Commenter 1:
I agree that you’re more likely to look for other options if your zoned school is not what you want it to be. However, this shouldn’t automatically mean G&T programs. There are many–but not enough–magnet schools and unzoned lottery schools that provide a good alternative without resorting to segregating kids (by the dubious method of test scores only) into “gifted” and (what’s the opposite? not gifted?). That the DOE seems to be pushing for more G&T, including more citywide G&T, rather than for more schools of this type–whether zoned or unzoned–greatly saddens me, in part for the reasons mentioned by the original poster.
@Commenter 2:
You’ve always had to apply to “even your neighborhood school” for kindergarten and, as I understand it, the fine print has always indicated that your “guarantee” of a spot is predicated on availability. What’s different is that some schools have become so crowded that that availability clause has now come into play; in those (still relatively few places) there simply is no room for all eligible zoned children. The other difference is that the date for K application is earlier (so that sibling eligibility for preK can be determined) which might indeed mean that you might be shut out of your neighborhood school if you don’t apply on time. Again, that could have happened at other times too but traditionally the window btw application/registration and start of school was shorter.
I also don’t think that you can generalize that G&T teachers are better than their nonG&T counterparts. My children have had excellent teachers at their inclusive school. Had I sent my older daughter to G&T kindergarten (she did test in and I considered it) she would have ended up in a class where the rookie teacher quit after 3 weeks and the administration of that school wound up putting a different sub in daily(!) for weeks. (An acquaintance’s daughter did end up in the class and it was an awful intro to school.)
@Commenter 3:
You could be describing my kid and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Comment by kk — January 23, 2009 @ 1:53 pm
All of the various America’s Best High Schools lists are ridiculous, but the one linked above is especially silly, because it relies on data from Great Schools, which is a pathetic website. Even though it’s a national commercial website, it probably gets fewer hits than Insideschools. Or at least it should.
Comment by Anonymous — January 23, 2009 @ 2:46 pm
G&T classes leave a huge void for those who are left behind. Schools teach to the lowest common denominator (at least my child’s does.) Classes aren’t tracked, so half the kids in his class are below grade level and some don’t even speak English. His teacher spends most of her time teaching to them while the other kids sit around reading on their own for hours. We had our son tested for 3rd grade G&T and he got a 99 on the OLSAT. Only there were no G&T openings nearby to move him to. He spends his days at school bored to tears and his focusing and motivation have taken a nosedive. I know of other schools that do track the classes and in that case, G&T may not be so necessary. My advice, check out your zoned school carefully to find out if they do mix the classes. If so, G&T classes are a necessity for a bright child, otherwise their needs might be ignored completely. If the school does track and offer enrichment, then maybe not so much. Each school is so different it it impossible to generalize. Luckily our zoned middle school is great, with lots of honors courses, so we just tell our son to make sure he gets 4s on his state tests so he can get into the honors courses and actually learn something.
Comment by parent — January 23, 2009 @ 6:57 pm
agree with comment #1. My daughter goes to PS6 in UES, and I’d turned down G&T to stay at PS6
Comment by Anonymous — January 24, 2009 @ 4:32 am
Commentor #6: Welcome to the melting pot that is New York City public school, where there will always be children of various abilities due to their divergent backgrounds and reference points. And yes, some of these children will speak little (or no)English. But in my mind, what makes a school work isn’t necessarily the tracking and segregation of students, but this - small class sizes which enable teachers to differentiate instruction, and which afford opportunities for children to share their particular strengths with one another, and learn from one another. Oh, and strong, capable teachers (I wonder about your son’s). I really like the author of this post’s comment, “a rising tide lifts all boats”.
Comment by a parent — January 24, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
I came across this newspaper article about the gifted program causing overcrowding in an elementary school in Queens. It is amazing how strongly parents feel on both sides of the issue.
Check it out at : http://www.bayside-times.com/articles/2009/01/22/forest_hills/forest_hills_ledger/news/forest_hills_ledger_newscvxuoif01212009.txt
Comment by NYCParent — January 24, 2009 @ 6:25 pm
I agree with commenter #8. Smaller class size can make a tremendous difference. I know that as a parent, I might be more inclined to keep my child in heterogeneous class (as opposed to G&T)if I know that the teacher had the ability to differentiate instruction. I’ve grappled with the author’s concerns (siphoning off the best students) for many years.
Besides G&T classes, programs along the lines of Prep for Prep create the same concern. While they greatly benefit the students who are placed in often idyllic educational environments, what happens to their neighborhood schools that they leave behind? How might, so-called “undesirable” schools be transformed if the brightest in the communities remained?
Comment by mom of former G&T student — January 25, 2009 @ 10:07 am
I also chose to go Gen Ed instead of gifted, and have been very happy with my choice. But my gen ed is PS87, which is an extraordinary school that does NOT teach to the “lowest common denominator.” (Boy, I love when parents throw that generalization out there!)
My daughter’s teachers have had no trouble differentiating instruction, possibly because of the administrative and parent support they receive there.
However, I understand the choice is different when comparing different gen eds and gifted programs. I think you have to make a case-by-case decision.
Comment by Julie — January 26, 2009 @ 10:10 am
I totally agree with comment 11.
(I posted comment 1)
I wanted to point out the following:
It’s easy to say “Oh, I can’t agree with the philosophy of G&T. I’ll send my child to local Gen Ed!” when you ARE in good zoned school.
But for many families, it may not be the case.
I really want to know if the author would make the same decision if she wasn’t in great zoned school. I want her to realize that G&T may be one of the few solution for some families out there.
Comment by Anonymous — January 26, 2009 @ 10:55 am
#8. I stongly disagree with you. I don’t know what kind of school your children attend, but I fail to see why you think tracking children would rule out different cultures being together or why you think immigrant children that already speaks English wouldn’t be at the top of the class. My child’s school is only 15% white with many different nationalities represented, so creating different classes based on ability wouldn’t stop the class from being a “melting pot.” My children have been in small classes that were just as poorly taught as large ones that were well taught. There is no differentiating of instruction at my child’s school. Every student in a grade has the same curriculum to learn and it would be the same in any size class. If you teach to the lowest common denominator, without enrichment, then the top part of the class is bored. If you teach to the top, you lose the bottom half. I firmly believe in tracking classes based on ability. This would negate the need for G&T classes as every one could be taught at their own local schools. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the nationality or culture of a child or small class size. It is all about teaching children at a level that they learn best at with an academically like group of peers.
Comment by Anonymous — January 26, 2009 @ 7:06 pm
You also forget that there are parents who decided to have their kids tested to see how they would do on such a test. This was the case with our decision. I thought my son could handle the test, and figured since the test was free, why not?
He ended up with a score of 99%. I was thrilled, but had not intended on plucking him from his school where he knew everyone and loved it. Then it turned out they were piloting a g/t class at his zoned school. So he ended up going there.
Unfortunately, it caused a lot of bad feelings, both for those parents whose kids didn’t “pass” the test, and those who opted not to take the test because they were happy with this zoned school. Both responses I understand.
It’s a complex subject. I think parents who opted not to have their kids tested or who didn’t pass the test have to own their issues about competition and not hide under the guise of being against such a test or a program. If we’re truly going to have an honest dialog, let’s bring up everyone’s baggage to the table and talk about the elephant in the room. Quite frankly, the parents got pretty ugly toward the other parents whose kids were in the g/t program. That’s a raw emotional response, not one concerned about diversity. I understand it, and by no means think my son is the next Einstein. It turned out he is a good test taker, and does have other strong areas in art and academia, but I certainly wouldn’t have spent half the year trying to derail the program if he didn’t get in.
Comment by Gina — January 27, 2009 @ 9:05 am
Commentor #13 - I think you misread me.I was in no way intimating that tracked classes contain only a certain demographic of children. I was responding to a commentor who was objecting to children in his/her son’s class who didn’t speak English. I’m sorry that your school doesn’t differentiate instruction. That’s a shame.
Comment by a parent — January 27, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
I’m with the critics here… not saying that 29 isnt the delightful school it really is.. being a neighborhood and school in a neighborhood that really likes it’s community of families and students.. but it really begs the issue that for so many of the city’s students, no such place exists in the neighborhood. Of course, there are those who actually MOVE to the zones for schools like 234 or 89(manhattan), 321, 29 and others in Park Slope, and then after a great bunch of years, learning in classes with LOADS of highly performing kids (so, who needs a G&T when that’s the case?)the kids take the tests for whichever accelerated middle and high schools and then we wonder why they are so successful ?? Really, as a new school parent, it’s only just begun. Wait and see, I say to my friends who havent yet taken the full term of ‘leaps’ through the NYC school system. It really really is not such a secret and should not be forgotten: for so many kids around the city, it is not a system of CHOICE by any stretch. For those of us who have come to know, have grown up with families that taught us to seek education at the highest possible level: well, it is a completely DIFFERENT experience. And our kids are the lucky recipients… It’s naive to suggest therefore that a local neighborhood school is the way to do it.. In NYC, the only way to do the job of schooling your kids is to find out EVERYTHING everyone else knows, has seen and try EVERYTHING you can, have the energy to pursue and all that. prek…well, that is just the start and all I can offer is do the best you think is best for your family and friends and leave it at that.. without judging the relative merits of shipping kids far and wide when others have (virtually) little or no choice in the matter… just my 22cents…best to all
Comment by Rachel Leinweber — January 28, 2009 @ 7:59 am