High school hustle: Choice, and crying teens
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My children came home from their middle school yesterday looking solemn and ashen-faced, and I knew immediately that something was up. They reported seeing hallways filled with sobbing 8th-graders who learned they did not get into their first, second or even third choice of high school. At least five, they said, were hysterical — they hadn’t been matched with any school at all. My 8th-grader, who got good news in February, felt terrible for some of his friends and classmates. My 6th-grader felt tremendous fear about what might happen to him. Some of the shut-out students had fine grades and test scores, so the kids now know that working hard in school doesn’t guarantee a successful high school match.
Earlier in the day, a press release from the Department of Education boasted that 86 percent (74,064) of the 86,169 students who applied for admission to a New York City public high school in 2009 were matched to one of their top five choices. Over half of the applicants – 51 percent (44,012) – received their first choice school, and 76 percent (65,780) got one of their top three schools.
Buried in the churn of seemingly good news was this incredible fact: some 7,455 students received no match at all. I’ve been writing about the high school selection process since September, and I can say there have been plenty of opportunities — exams, interviews, information fairs, notices about new high schools. Guidance counselors have been informative and helpful. I was both astonished and pleased at the many different types of high schools that exist. But through it all, the lurking fear remained — what happens if you don’t get a match?
I don’t think it’s fair for the DOE to claim success when close to 7,500 children in New York City didn’t get seats. I think that number is shamefully high. And I think there is something seriously wrong with this system. The high school admissions process is an enormously complicated and frightening ordeal that asks a lot of kids and parents. While it is true that many students had multiple fine choices, it is not okay to leave young adolescents out in the cold, sobbing in the hallways, feeling the sharp sting of rejection that in many cases was no fault of theirs.
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When will Inside Schools post a list of high schools that still have spaces? My daughter (luckily matched to her first choice last year) has a good friend who got no match at all - a lovely girl, good student, excellent grades - we feel terrible for her. What can she do? Last year it seemed like there were at least a few good schools that still had openings for the supplementary round - Lab, BHSEC II, NYCi-school. What about this year?
Comment by parent — March 26, 2009 @ 1:21 pm
I too have an eighth grader, and I think this process is appalling.
On the Upper West Side, where I live, there is one high school (Beacon)with challenging academics. Far more kids apply to it than there is room for, and my son and many of his friends did not get in. These are straight A students, at challenging middle schools, who ask nothing more than to go to a decent high school in their neighbood, but under the DOE’s system, that is not an option for them.
Yet at the same time, there is a beautiful high school building (Brandeis) in the heart of the Upper West Side filled with kids who commute from other boroughs, most of whom do not graduate. The DOE is closing the school and starting small schools in the building, but as far as I can tell, did not even consider using the buiding to house a neighborhood high school.
The solution to the problem seems clear to me: open neighborhood high schools open to residents of the neighborhood, so that every child has the option of going to his neighborhood high school, rather than having to apply to numerous schools around the city. There would be a huge demand for a neighborhood high school in my neighborhood, and I’m sure, in others. Yet I never see this possibility mentioned. Instead, 13-year-olds are put through this ordeal. Why?
Comment by UWSParent — March 26, 2009 @ 1:59 pm
We are working on a list of high schools with open seats and will post details as soon as they’re known.
UWS parent, you’re not alone in your desire for neighborhood schools similar to Beacon — far from it. And you’re not alone in asking why Brandeis won’t become just such a resource, instead of a campus of small schools. Had the DOE held community hearings on the question, perhaps there would have been a chance to influence the decision — which goes to the reasoning behind the lawsuit filed this week by the NYCLU, and ultimately, to the powers conferred by mayoral control.
Comment by Helen — March 26, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
In response to UWSP: There are several neighborhood elementary and middle schools in poor neighborhoods that fail while neighborhood schools in affluent areas flourish. While I agree there needs to be a better process, neighborhood schools will only solve the problems of middle and upper class families while leaving poor (and many minority) families behind.
Comment by Tracy — March 26, 2009 @ 2:31 pm
I’m a freshman in High School and applied for a transfer. The results were supposed to come yesterday but It still didnt come today and its Thursday. Should I be worried or am i Just being impatient!
Comment by Sue — March 26, 2009 @ 3:09 pm
In response to Tracy,
I don’t think the current system (or kids having to apply to high schools all over NYC) serves poor or minority families any better than having neighborhood high shools would.
First, the application process is incredibly time-consuming and confusing. It was difficult for me, an educated involved parent with time and resources, to navigate it with my son. So I believe it is even harder for kids whose parents don’t have the time, ability or even English language skills to help them with the process.
Second, the current system doesn’t seem to be resulting in kids from poor neighborhoods going to flourishing high schools in other neighborhoods. Instead, they seem to be spending hours on the subway to commute to failing schools in other neighborhoods. What is the good in that?
If there is evidence that the current system works well for poor families, I’m all ears.
Comment by UWSParent — March 26, 2009 @ 4:18 pm
Liz: What steps now do you recommend for parents and students who did not get a placement at all? What is their recourse? Is there a process to try again for the seats left vacant by the students who received more than one offer?
Comment by Anonymous — March 26, 2009 @ 4:35 pm
The process for kids who didn’t get a seat on this first round is to apply for schools that still have space in the Supplementary Round. You can learn about these schools at a fair on March 31st at Martin Luther King Jr. Educational Complex from 6pm-9pm; applications should go back to middle-school guidance counselors by April 3d.
In terms of trying again for “seats left vacant,” that’s not how the DOE works the school choice process. The only students who received more than one offer are those who placed into the specialized HS and/or LaGuardia, who got their news in early February. With few exceptions, students who were offered seats at the specialized schools or LaG were also offered general-ed high-school seats at the same time. They had to choose their school of preference before the end of February, and the seats they gave up were restored to the general pool, ahead of the decisions that were released yesterday. So basically, the kids who got more than one offer had to accept only one offer about a month ago — and the seats they ‘gave up’ were offered to other students.
Insideschools will post a list tomorrow of schools that have space for students in September 2009, along with strategies and tips for choosing a school in the supplementary round.
Comment by Helen — March 26, 2009 @ 5:38 pm
i am very upset my son did’nt get in any high school he pick.i just want to know what happen to my son if he didn’t get in sceond around. how can i help my son . should and A+and b+ grade that he work so hard get him in a school that he don’t want to go. please help me
Comment by sue — March 27, 2009 @ 2:34 am
Can we apply for the second round even if my daughter was matched with her last choice ,our zoned high school. She is very upset she worked so hard in middle school to get in a very good high school. No luck she was matched with the one she did not want to go at all, not very challenging for her.
Please help.
Comment by timamina — March 27, 2009 @ 8:04 am
If one does the math–86,169 students applied for high school, and 7,455 received no placement at all–that is upwards of 8.5% of students and families who went through a twisted, Kafkaesque process only to have it spit them out at the end with nothing. That would be unconscionable if it were happening to adults, but for this to be the business-as-usual for our children is tantamount to abuse and means that the application process is BROKEN. Klein knows that the families whose kids got placements will be happy and so won’t demand change, while the 8.65% of families whose kids got no placement will be so busy trying to find a seat in a decent school and keeping up their spirits that they won’t be up for the fight.
Comment by Anonymous — March 27, 2009 @ 8:12 am
We have posted a list of schools with open seats on the website; later today, we’ll post an article with recommendations for high schools to consider.
Sue, so sorry that your son didn’t get good news. He will be placed on the second round. According to DOE, all 8th graders get HS placements, eventually. It’s not clear from your note if he got into a school he didn’t want (was it on his ranked list?) or didn’t get placed at all: Transfers between schools, once a seat has been assigned to a student, are really hard to obtain.
Timamina asks about going into the second round because her child got an offer at a school she doesn’t want to attend. Transfers are difficult in the DOE’s School Choice process, unless there’s a travel hardship due to an overlong commute, or a documented safety issue. Parents can appeal their child’s placement, but there are NO guarantees that new placements will be granted. (Not defending the practice, just explaining. -hz)
Comment by Helen — March 27, 2009 @ 8:16 am
A secondary response to UWSParent: I admitted in my previous comment that the current system needs to be changed, but I am an adult who benefitted from being able to go to school outside my neighborhood. The hour-plus commute was worth it as I applied to the schools myself–I did not rely on my parents’ assistance–and I was able to attend the NYC Lab School. I now have a bachelor’s degree and a law degree from two top universities. If I were trapped at my neighborhood school, I don’t believe I would be where I am today. Change the system, but let’s keep the opportunities open for poor children to leave their neighborhoods and enjoy the same opportunities that more affluent children enjoy.
Comment by Tracy — March 27, 2009 @ 9:19 am
Is school choice a privilege or a right?
For most students and parents in this country, it’s neither: you simply attend the school to which you’re assigned. There is no choice at all.
For those blessed (or cursed) enough to live in areas that have choice — like New York City — it’s worth remembering that choice cuts both ways. In a world of finite resources and unpredictable/shifting preferences, no choice system will satisfy everyone. The question, then, is what percentage are we willing to live with of people who don’t get one of their top choices?
New York City apparently satisfied 86% of students and parents this year (if we call getting one of your top five choices “satisfactory”). That’s almost a B+. Not too shabby if you ask me.
The easy and obvious alternative, of course, is to do away with choice altogether. No more headaches, no more feelings of rejection, no more “solemn and ashen-faced” children, no more “exams, interviews, information fairs.” Instead, you just attend the school to which you’re assigned — based on where you live. But I don’t exactly see crowds of people agitating for a return to this system! It is difficult not to conclude, then, that the current system (while imperfect) still pleases considerably more people than it disappoints.
If someone magically has a solution that will assign 100% of children to one of their top five schools every year, let’s hear it!
Comment by Justin — March 27, 2009 @ 9:31 am
my son did’nt get in frist round no school offer him a seat. so he will get a second chance to apply 12 high school. but i don’t know what happen if no school take him on the second round.
Comment by sue — March 27, 2009 @ 10:30 am
what i want to know is what are the chance my son will get in from the second round. my son are great kids and have good grade in school. i feel so down because look at my son with his sad face. please give me some answer. we all want the best for our kids. could the doe give all this kids chance and go to school they are happy with. is so sad to see all this good kids on the other side and no help.
Comment by sue — March 27, 2009 @ 11:41 am
The problem isn’t the algorythm for placing the kids, it’s the shortage of great schools. What we need are more Beacons to choose from, not neighborhood-limited schools. One thing that distinguishes Beacon is a LOT of parental involvement in the school. My child did not get her first choices yesterday, and I am going to go over to the school that took her and do everything I can for the 4 years she’s there to make it a better school! These public schools belong to us, we’ve got to get in there and help make them serve our kids.
Comment by Molly — March 27, 2009 @ 12:23 pm
Sue — Most students do indeed get a match after the second round. Take a close look at the list and see which schools your son qualifies for and which are acceptable to you and him. You’ll probably want to go with him to the school fair at Martin Luther King complex in Manhattan on Tuesday night - March 31 -and meet representatives from the schools he is interested in. Let them know he is interested.
Comment by Pamela Wheaton — March 27, 2009 @ 12:39 pm
Justin,
Do you work for the DOE? You don’t sound like a parent who has been through this process.
I have, and I disagree that this system “pleases considerably more people than it disappoints.” On the contrary, the parents of my child’s classmates — involved, educated parents of hard-working kids — are all very unhappy with the system, even those whose kids did end up at a school they liked.
As I said, my child asked nothing more than to go to a well-regarded high school on the Upper West Side. But that was not an option for him –the one well-regarded school in the neighborhood chose its kids subjectively, and rejected plenty of straight-A students. Even though he was accepted to a school elsewhere, where I think he will be happy, how does it help him to have a “choice” to apply to school in other boroughs an hour away, or schools with 50% graduation rates? Especially when he may well be rejected by all of these schools? It doesn’t, and I don’t know why the DOE refuses to understand that.
Is there some reason the DOE refuses to open neighborhood high schools in my neighborhood? The neighborhood is packed with parents who are committed to publice education and would happily support such schools.
Comment by UWSParent — March 27, 2009 @ 12:43 pm
“Choice” doesn’t apply to the students. It applies to the schools, which by proxy select forms representing children.
Comment by Anonymous — March 27, 2009 @ 1:15 pm
UWS Parent - what about Brandeis? Your neighborhood never supported that school, and so it was always filled with kids from other neighborhoods. Now it is being closed. UWS families don’t always pick the neighborhood school.
http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fs=153&str=Brandeis&formtype=name
Comment by Anonymous — March 27, 2009 @ 2:06 pm
UWSParent — No, I don’t work for the DOE. Nor am I a parent who has been through this system. I had no choice in where I went to school, and I don’t think this was an entirely bad thing. I am neither for nor against choice, but I am against the slopping thinking I sometimes see when people discuss choice.
We too often forget that the relevant question here is “Choice for whom?” When people speak of choice, they lose sight of the fact that it’s not just students and parents doing the choosing — schools are choosing, too. That’s the downside everyone prefers to ignore. But it’s the reality. You are among the few who recognize that choice is a double-edged sword, wielded both by parents and schools (”the one well-regarded school in the neighborhood chose its kids subjectively”). Subjectivity is the name of the game, I’m afraid.
It is mathematically and physically impossible to admit every student to his or her top choice. Schools have limited numbers of seats. We can build more good schools and shut down bad ones, but this takes time — and people who have kids in school NOW are (understandably) unwilling to wait.
Whether the “current system (while imperfect) still pleases considerably more people than it disappoints” is an empirical question. That the vast majority (86%) of those who apply get one of their top five choices seems to me good evidence that most people are reasonably content with the system.
However, if this is untrue, then we should change the system. But first we would need good data to know just how unsatisfied people are with the current system. Your anecdotal evidence — “the parents of my child’s classmates — involved, educated parents of hard-working kids — are all very unhappy with the system, even those whose kids did end up at a school they liked” — is useful but the sample size is terribly small, quite possibly making the results unrepresentative of the larger population.
As a recent book by Prof. Barry Schwartz makes clear, the paradox of choice is that more is often less.
Comment by Justin — March 27, 2009 @ 2:16 pm
My 8th graded didn’t get chosen to any of his high schools either. We receiced notices when we applied that he met the requirements but he wasn’t selected for any. We live in SI, not a whole lot of choices. So I checked the list and the same programs we applied for are on the list. I asked the school’s guidance counselor why they were on the list if supposedly there were no seats and why would I apply again. She said, “I don’t'know what to tell you”. So, now what do we do?? I’ll be sick again waiting for the new results.
Comment by Christine — March 27, 2009 @ 3:09 pm
Justin,
I don’t think that you will ever get good data on how unhappy the current system makes people. The DOE is completely uninterested in finding out, as far as I can tell. All I see from them is how wonderful all this “choice” is — that’s why you sounded to me like a DOE spokesman in your first post.
You say that I’m “among the few” who realize that choice is a double-edged sword. But I think most of my fellow parents in this process realize it — that’s exactly what we’re complaining about. It’s only the DOE who pretends (or really thinks?) that all is well and that we have a wonderful cornucopia of choices.
And it’s not just the results that makes people unhappy, it’s also the process. Our eighth-graders’ fall is spent touring schools and working on applications.
Comment by UWSParent — March 27, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
If every student put their zoned school as their last choice than every single eight grader could be matched to a school, since you are automatically given a seat at that zoned school. This would eliminate all the issues of not getting into any school.
Comment by Ian — March 27, 2009 @ 8:09 pm
This has been an absolute ordeal for my child at one of the city’s top middle schools who was one of the 7,500 unmatched. Please explain to me what kind of a system allows a 13-year-old student with an A average who attends an honors program, is highly involved in the school, has excellent attendance, etc., remains without a seat. My child’s self-esteem is in shatters. What do I say when asked, “Why even bother to work hard if it doesn’t even matter?”
Comment by DeltaParent — March 28, 2009 @ 12:15 pm
i dont see what the prblem is i am an eigth grader and i gaot my first choice bard hsec
Comment by school boy — March 28, 2009 @ 12:49 pm
No other city in the USA has so complicated a high school admissions process. With a child in the public school system in NYC (now at LaGuardia HS), who also went to a selective middle school, and went thru the process of getting in there, too (Manhattan East), I think that the system is such that unless a student is already in a selective middle school or an honors program in middle school, that student is unlikely to be accepted by one of the specialized exam high schools, or LaGuardia HS, or any of the selective or audition high schools, such as Bard, Baruch, Lab, Townsend Harris, Millenium, ELRO, Baccalaurate School of Global Studies, PPAS, Frank Sinatra, Talent Unlimited, Art & Design, etc.
The problem is that DOE does not seem interested anymore in establishing large or medium sized zoned for comprehensive high schools. This then completely leaves many middle of the road students with no good options. While some neighborhoods still have solid zoned for schools (examples: Forest Hills HS, Francis Lewis, Bayside HS, Carodozo), these seem to be in the minority. There is much for be said for the large variety of sports, clubs, electives, languages, performing arts ensemble opportunities, etc. that the larger zoned for schools can offer, and that is part of what makes them still very attractive to students and families, as well as their academic options, which generally have programs to suit those middle of the road students, as well as students who excel, but prefer to stay closer to home, in an honors program or specialized academy within the larger high school.
Closing down a failing large high school and replacing it with a bunch of tiny academies, organized around dubious themes, and attracting students who could not get in anywhere else, and who often have little interest in the them, and who have long commutes to boot, is not a formula for success. Let’s bring back zoned for high schools of around 1,500 to 2,500 and make them work!
Comment by Ellen — March 28, 2009 @ 2:24 pm
MY DAUGHTER WAS NOT CHOSEN FOR ANY OF HER HIGH SCHOOL CHOICES. BOTH MY DAUGHTER AND I WERE SO DISAPPOINTED. WHAT DO U TELL UR 13 YR OLD. THE SUPPLEMENTARY ROUND SCHOOLS SUCK ALSO. SOME OF THE SCHOOL THAT WE CHOSE THE FIRST TIME ARE ON THE SUPPLEMENTARY LIST, I DONT GET DOE SYSTEM AT ALL. I ALSO FEEL THAT MY DAUGHTERS GUIDANCE COUNSELOR WAS NO HELP AT ALL. THROUGH PRAYER WE ALL WILL GET THROUGH THIS.
Comment by SIMONE — March 28, 2009 @ 4:47 pm
I think this system is bordering on child abuse. It is unbelievable to me that the city puts 13 year old kids through a process like this and gets away with it. That after going on numerous school tours, interviews, auditions, and tests finds out that he was not matched to any high school!!! On top of that they have to deal with facing their friends that did get into their top choice schools and feel the pain of rejection. My is an “A” student at Wagner Middle School - he has excellent grades, excellent attendance, perfect behavior and he was not matched to any school in the city. Instead he is expected to pick one of the schools in the supplementary round, schools that I wouldn’t even walk into, never mind send my child to; schools where less then 50 % of the kids graduate - this is where I am suppose to send an “A” student to? Has the DOE lost their minds, is this city totally unaware of what is going on? I am an Upper East Side parent, who pays a a lot of money to live here (not to mention the state and city taxes I pay) and I have no high school to send my son to!!! I can’t understand why there are no zoned schools for NYC students and why a child with an “A” average can’t get into a decent high school. I also can’t understand why more parents aren’t in an uproar, why we accept this system and put our kids through this. Can’t they see how this affects the children of this city. They are so worried about “no child left behind” what about the “A” students that are being left behind? Doesn’t anyone care about them? I am writing to “Shame on You” if any other parents want to join me. I refuse to send my child to a bad school. I will make sure everyone in the DOE, Mayor Blumberg and Joel Klien along with every news station is aware of what is going on in this city. I am a hard working middle class single mother, I pay a lot of money to live in this city, about $10,000 in city taxes and it is the their responsibility to make sure my son has a high school that he can go to - one at which he will actually prosper and live to graduate, not one at which his life would be at stake.
Comment by Sherri, a Wagner Parent — March 28, 2009 @ 6:41 pm
No other city in the USA offers as many choices as in NYC. Try living in LA, Chicago or Washington DC where the only choice is to your local zone school, regardless of whether it is favorable academically, safe or not. There are advantages to having the ability to choose, but from what I’ve read, it seems to me, one should choose many options carefully and wisely to increase one’s chances of getting a high school.
Justin is right, the issue appears to be a demand versus supply issue… if there was an infinite supply of seats at the best schools, then, chances are, most, if not all students would get a match because there are plenty of seats in every every school to choose and attend. The research that I have done so far, schools such as Bard, Beacon, LaGuardia etc as Ellen stated above, are selective or audition schools and in reality, have a finite number of spots available and not everyone can get in because they, the school itself, has the final say. So they draw the line. A line that must be drawn.
We all believe that our own child is the best and brightest (and there is nothing wrong with that) and deserve to attend the best school, however, the truth of the matter is that not everyone can be the best nor are they. I try to be a realist, and although my son has an even amount of “A” grades vs “B”s… I don’t consider my son an all “A” student as I am sure there are plenty of that maybe more deserving because of they do in fact, have higher grades…Not everyone can attend Harvard, Yale, or Wharton either, even if I had enough money (which I did not), I settled on a state school.
I don’t disagree that at age 13, my son (not quite there yet, but am beginning to prepare for it) would be emotionally impacted if he could not attend the best school in the city, but I will make sure that I take full advantage of the process and not limit myself or my son to only a few selective or audition schools if, on the off-chance, they did not quite view my son in the same light as I do.
I do know that this comment page has enlightened me and I will continue to prepare for the process.
Comment by Steve — March 28, 2009 @ 8:02 pm
My point was that large zoned for high schools have worked well in many neighborhoods for middle of the road students (think Midwood, Forest Hills, Bayside, etc.) Where are these middle of the road students going to go if they don’t have a decent zoned for high school and obviously can’t get into the types of selective schools that I mentioned in my original comment? I am not saying that these middle of the road students should be placed in the top programs. And I think that most of their parents would actually understand this, and know their children perhaps better than DOE gives them credit for. However, these middle of the road students certainly deserve to get into decent schools with other solid B students. I taught political science to undergraduates at the University of Michigan for years, and I can tell you that sometimes those B students end up being the best students, because they discover a subject that excites them, and they work hard at it, because they know they are not naturally good at it. A large functioning zoned for high school can be just the ticket for those solid B students. But the system as it currently stands does not do well for them. And I don’t think small special themed high schools are the place for these middle of the road students either.
Comment by Ellen — March 28, 2009 @ 10:35 pm
This is a very hard process for all involved. With the world system as it is today many persons adults and children alike are all on edge. We pride ourselves in this country for the freedoms we do hold so dear. A right to a good education is one of them. Yet we must apply ourselves in all situations we may find ourselves in in order to succeed. I explain this to my 14 yr old daughter all the time. One may not get into the high school of their choice but one may be determined to succeed wherever necessary. I know the high school you attend does at most times determine the college that will be screening your requirements later, but one should realize that a fight to survive is worth the struggle. So to all of the 7,500+ students do not let this be a failure, let the feelings you feel about this process prepare you for other outcomes of other ordeals one will most likely face in the future. Let it be a beginning of your determination to be the greatest you can be. I promise you that this is only the beginning. You will work harder when your back is up against the wall. College selctions and landing the job you love is another hard process and this process reminds me of such. You may not want to hear this at this time, but I hope it will pick some of your spirits up. Keep focused on the prize at the end of the challenge–A well respected, trustworhy, upstanding citizen able to commit to making a difference for the those who are going to come behind you.
Comment by Maureen — March 29, 2009 @ 11:09 am
Reading all these comments i can tell you why many who did well did not get matched as they had the same choices as over 5000 other kids for the same 6 or 7 schools in Manhatten that many parents would consider. Knowing this and living in district one I knew my child had really no chance for those schools. i took in consideration knowing my child and what he needed there are some very good schools that are not well known but are just as good. essex street academy ( where he was matched) on the lower east side recieved an A and is similar to Beacon but you did not have to interview. If you want a more prep feel Manhattan village Academy has a great program and is selective. pace on the lower Eastside is also a good college prep school. all of these schools recieved A’s. Parents need to go outside the box , look atsome of these schools and realize the competion is great. You must know your child and how the system works. Hopefully this will help parents who have 7th graders
Comment by Jill — March 29, 2009 @ 12:56 pm
Jill’s comment mentions the district you live in as a factor in the process. I think she’s right and I think it’s probably why my son did not get a match. Several of the schools we applied to had a District 2 preference and we’re in District 3. But those were the schools that were right for my son so that’s where we had to apply. Since the Bd. of Ed. representatives at all the meetings are adamant that you should not list schools that you would not want your child to go to, what do you do other than apply to where you think is right and hope? Although I understand that parents in a neighborhood may feel that they support their school and therefor should get a preference, if this is a citywide admission system then every kid should have the same chance at every school regardless of where they live. Until the Bd. of Ed. provides enough quality programs in all neighborhoods there should be no district preferences. As for the Supplementary Round, if I didn’t think those schools were right for my child in the first place, what makes them right for him now?
Comment by Liz — March 29, 2009 @ 4:34 pm
i feel the same way liz feel, why would i want my son to apply second round if he did’nt want to go anyway. is a shame how my son come home feel that we have to move to go bayside or forest hill high school. why they have to make a 13 years old pick anyway. it is presure and unkind to any 13 years old kids. the school is going wrost than ever. please stop making my son feel like this world is the end.
Comment by sue — March 29, 2009 @ 7:00 pm
My older daughter (who applied two years ago) was not matched to any school on her list and did not get into a high school until the supplemental round (end of May!) - she is going to NEST*m, which is a fine school, but not on her preferred list, and a horrid commute from our home in Inwood. My younger daughter, who applied this year, got in to her second choice of the selective high schools in the second round that came out last week. However, she took the specialized high school test and auditioned for La Guardia and did not get into any schools in the first round. She watched friends who were accepted at La Guardia in the same studio she auditioned for decide not to go there. La Guardia was her first choice overall. Many of those kids chose Beacon, which was first on my daughter’s list of selective high schools, and not the school she was assigned to in the second round.
My complaint is - why do kids who get into the specialized high schools find out 6 weeks before everyone else AND get a choice of one of the selective high schools? It is actually possible for kids to have three choices in the first round, if a student scores highly enough on the SHSAT, auditions for and is offered a place at La Guardia, and then gets a selective high school offer. The selective high schools fill a lot of their seats with those kids who have these choices. Kids who don’t get into a specialized high school or La Guardia are stuck with what’s left in the selective high schools - significantly fewer seats in the second round.
After the specialized high school round, kids don’t have choices - they just get assigned to a school on their list. Or worse, are not matched at all. Why should some kids get three choices and other kids be shut out? In most cases, the kids who do not gain admissions to specialized high schools are no less intelligent, talented, motivated, or worthy than those who do get in.
It would be more fair if all the results came out at once. If kids take the SHSAT or audition at La Guardia and score highly enough, they should be assigned to those schools. Or have each student rank all the high schools they are interested in on one list - specialized and selective together - and complete the admissions requirements for each school on the list. A kid who really wants to go to Beacon would rank Beacon first, and if they met the requirements, they would be assigned there, even if they did well enough to go to Bronx Science.
The public high school admissions process is a most gut wrenching, drawn out ordeal. I fully expect the college admissions process to much easier.
Comment by Julie — March 29, 2009 @ 11:59 pm
I agree with deltaparent. How do you explain to your 14 year old who worked really hard in 7th grade to make sure she gets into a good high school, and then not even get into any of her three choices. this is my child, and of course, all the guidance counselor can say is “I feel so bad”. Well pity is not going to get my daughter into a good high school. When I looked up the list of high school left with seats, most of them said they were for students with lower academic standards. So, DOE wants us to send our A plus grade students to a poor managed school. This has been very devasting and demeaning to my child who now feels her 7th grade accomplishments were for nothing. Thank you to DOE for helping to bring my child’s self esteem for super high to very low. This is horrible, and very stressful.
Comment by Parent of Devasted Teen — March 30, 2009 @ 7:46 am
I am new to NYC and find the process to be very biased and leave many good kids in bad situations. I am also finding many parents forced to choose catholic schools they cannot afford. How is this a free and appropriate public education. Truly disgusted with my first high school experience in NYC.
Comment by melanie — March 30, 2009 @ 10:37 am
Life is a competition and life is unfair. Even Kindergartens are competitive in NY so when your kids turn 13 they should get already used to it , tell them about it
Comment by Anonymous — March 30, 2009 @ 10:57 am
My daughter and I went through such an informed and lengthy process when picking the high schools for her application. We feel we made very informed choices and bonded throughout the experience. She had all the qualifications for all the schools she put on her application (8 in total). We met with her high school counselor and another counselor from another program she participates in. She did not get matched to any school. And now, not only do we have a short list of schools to work with, but we have exactly ONE WEEK to make a decision. I challenge someone to explain this to me and make it sound logical. I will be going tomorrow to the fair they are having, but I still am so confused. Why was my daughter not matched? What does that really mean? How can I help my daughter not feel rejected, when I feel like she was myself? How does the DOE expect us to encourage our kids to be the best they can be only to say “oh sorry you’re not good enough, here’s a list of schools who have to take you eventually”? I am so disappointed and I feel like I can’t do anything about it. I feel completely helpless. This is wrong. What can we do?
Comment by Jessie — March 30, 2009 @ 11:18 am
The process is completely unfair to begin with-all the screened programs for high school give priority to district 2 or downtown-how is this fair to begin with? District 3 has only one really good school that is very high in demand-Beacon! In order to make this process fair, the priority to districts should be removed or the districts should be reestablished so that more district 3 students as well as other districts have an opportunity to get into screened high schools that their children have worked so hard to get into-otherwise, what is the pay off?
Comment by no name — March 30, 2009 @ 12:24 pm
Beacon is a complete mystery to me. At my son’s school, a fair number of kids god into Beacon, and a much greater number did not, but there is no way to guess–based on their grades, attendance–which ones did and which ones didn’t. Some struggling students got in and many very strong ones did not. So, is it accurate to write about the process as if the schools do a ranked list according to straightforward objective measures? Can we learn more about how schools like Beacon (or other selective ones that use things like portfolios, interviews, etc) actually rank the students. I heard someone say that some of the schools feel like they don’t have enough say in who gets in? How could that be? Does the DOE have any input in individual schools’ rankings of kids?
Finally, what happens to spots at places like Beacon (or other selective schools) where some admitted students may opt at this point to go to private schools? Do those spots get put in another round of competition later on?
Comment by anonymous — March 30, 2009 @ 5:51 pm
I am one of the students that didn’t get into any high-schools. I am pretty disappointed because I thought I would have gotten into at least a decent high-school. I tried so hard in 7th grade by getting good grades. I had 85-90 ranging grades. I’m not saying that I’m the only one going through this, a lot of other students from my school and from other schools have to struggle by going through the same process over again and it’s a hassle because the list they gave with the letter are not the best schools I’ve seen. The only thing to do is to apply to the new schools in my opinion but it’s worth a try because NyciSchool was in the supplementary round last year and look this year everyone wants to apply to it. It’s just luck and it doesn’t matter if you have good grades or bad grades there is something wrong with the DOE system and it should be changed.
Like Obama Says “Yes We Can.”
Comment by Umera K. — March 30, 2009 @ 6:04 pm
I am a disgruntled NYC middle schooler, who has been a steady honor roll student, and has taken on a heavy load of extracurriculars like sports, theatre, and debate. None the less, when my letter from both specialized and public high schools came, they both said that I had not been matched with any school. This left me in a disappointed state, and frankly, I didn’t understand why I had been unimpressive to the high schools of my choice. I wrote good essays, had good interviews, and had exceptional recommendation letters from my teachers. However, after buckets of tears, and quite a bit of foot stomping, I realized that although the system itself is not idyllic, one must never forget that even though they may not have been accepted to the school of their choice, it does not mean that you are less intelligent or less interesting, it simply means that the system that is being run is unfortunately flawed.
Comment by Melissa Eade — March 30, 2009 @ 7:32 pm
tomorrow is the day to the school fair . but i just want to know would it make a different if me and my son go. what are the chance he will get in the school he pick the second round. i just hope my son won’t feel bad again.
Comment by sue — March 30, 2009 @ 8:43 pm
is it legal to class action or at least take the board of ed to court.. withhold taxes (put in escrow with lawyer like rent and housing court) I would think that if you could get 20,000 -30,000 to 50,000 unhappy families willing to say they would withhold taxes legally — it would at least make some headlines
and maybe some pressure for change ..
Comment by philip — March 30, 2009 @ 9:17 pm
This is all very difficult. I have finally gotten a hold of myself & my disappointment. And I have to thank you, Liz willen, for helping to make that possible. I will go to the fair tomorrow night. If nothing else, it’s a chance to ORGANIZE!
I am curious about this 2nd round. How does a student suddenly become appealing, to a school? Some people seem to be pointing out in different ways, that it is not only the bad schools listed.
So, what are they, offered incentive money to take the stragglers??
Thank you for the suggestions & support. Good luck all.
Comment by Zea — March 30, 2009 @ 10:52 pm
My twin niece and nephew were the first class that had to deal with this process where you can select up to 12 schools. My niece, the A student and salutatorian for the graduating class, followed the instructions, listed 12 schools and got the last one, which was at an undesirable school. My nephew, who, bless him, would do what he wanted when he wanted, got his first choice. We fought and got her into her first choice, but it was a struggle. And no, it wasn’t fair, but neither was the process and what going to the school she got would have done for her life. She graduated on the honor roll and is now in her first choice college studying biology.
I figure, I’ve learned from that experience. When my daughter had to go through this process, my daughter, an 85 student, I only put down three choices. She got her last one. The school turned out to be great on paper, but abysmal in its delivery. Again, we fought and got her moved, but it was a major struggle. Not fair, but neither was what that school was doing in her life. W/the move, she went from failing math B to a 94 average in math B. I asked her what was the difference. She said the teacher taught steps to solve the problem. I asked what did the other teacher do? She said he put the problem on the board and changed the variables to show how the answer would change. He taught just enough to confuse.
This year, I had to go through the process w/my son. An 80 average student and good child. I put down 2 schools because those were the schools I wanted. He got none of his choices, so we’re in second round. He felt like it meant he was stupid. I told him I thought at some point it’s a computer matching process. I went to the second-round fair last night and ask. And, yes, after the schools do a selection, those names go back to the department of ed’s computers. So getting the school you desire is akin to winning Lotto. This is problematic, as I’ve never won Lotto. I’m so tired of fighting, but here we go again. I looked into one of the area Catholic high schools as an option if he doesn’t get one of the schools we request and we can’t live with the computer “match.” It will cost $7,000 a year. That’s a lot for our family. There should be a tax deduction when families are forced into this position.
S
Comment by yvette — April 1, 2009 @ 6:12 am
i feel the same why. because my son did’nt get pick too.he have good great in school he make honer roll plus gold honer roll. so what it tell us is that you teach your kids work hard in school and now they don’t get where they want to go.how do you explain that.i am just like any parent tired of everything.i just wish he get in a school he want in the second round.
Comment by sue — April 1, 2009 @ 8:16 am
I’m still not sure of the purpose of a centralized administration for an urban educational system. Why have buildings full of relatively well-paid bureaucrats who never meet a student? There’s not really much use for anyone outside of the school itself. A successful school needs only students, parents, teachers, a Principal and some mechanism (e.g. Board comprising each of those constiuents) to govern. Neither bureaucrats or bureaucracies excell at providing service, but are excellent at self-preservation and self-aggrandizement.
Comment by Roger — April 1, 2009 @ 9:33 am
This is my first experience with the public school system, and i am appalled. When my 8th grader decided that she wanted to attend a public school i was taken aback, but as promised choosing a high school will be her choice. We attended the school fairs and many open houses. We did interviews and the interviewers were impressed with her academic progress. We pondered for days the order in which to place her choices. Then the results came in an the devastation began. How could she not get into any of her first 3 choices, we only had 5, with the fifth being far fetched, she was choosen for the fifth choice, and to make matters worse many of her friends were not even accepted to a public school.
The selection process i think is inadquate, however, as many may know there are too few “good public high school” this is why thousands are applying to only a select few, leaving our teens to fall between the cracks at “the other public schools”. So what are my choices now “Private again or Charter” I am sickened to see many hopeful kids hurt and disappointed in our system…this is where we are losing our youth. AND THE TOP SCHOOL OF HER CHOICE SAID TO APPLEAL!! For what to give my daughter false hope and further dissapointment GIVE ME A BREAK!!
Comment by Sherry — April 1, 2009 @ 9:17 pm
My son did was among the 7,455 students that did not get selected to his choices in spite of the fact that we did everything we were told to make the top choices. We were in fact said that “it is a guarentee that your son will be accepted into this school if you attend the open house and put us down as your first choice”. The impact of this on a 14 year old is tremendous. Why should my son apply for a second round that includes schools that he has no interest in going to? This is the foundation for a youngster and if not positive it have negative effects that may not be able to be resolved.
Comment by Sam — April 2, 2009 @ 1:21 pm
believe it or not nothing is guarentee . i feel the same way i attend all the open house too. my son didn’t get in the frist round too. i hope the second round he could get in the school he wish to get in. all i could say is pray to god our kids will get in the school they enjoy. we do not want our kids to drop out high school.
Comment by sue — April 3, 2009 @ 3:29 pm
How did everyone fair in the supplementary round? I’m a reporter covering high school admissions in NYC. Please email me if you’d like to share your experience. Thank you! mhb2122@columbia.edu
Comment by Meghan — April 29, 2009 @ 12:28 pm
Everyone being placed in a school in their top 5 does not at ALL mean that each is happy or satisfied with the process. A B student who doesn’t live in Manhattan probably doesn’t even have 5 decent (80% or more students graduate in 4 years / safety record which proves it safe for all) schools he or she can apply to. How is this fair? Those people who got #4 or #5 on their list, they are not satisfied, so that 86% satisfaction number presented by the Dep’t of Ed is completely misleading. Those who apply to screened programs for which they are more than qualified don’t get satisfaction either, as there are NOT ENOUGH SEATS in all the programs to accomodate all students who want to attend and meet all criteria. My older son is currently dealing with this nightmarish process, and my younger son had a score entitling him to attend one of the 3 elementary-level citywide gifted programs, only to be told in an apologetic form letter that they do not have for the surprisingly high number of students who qualified for the three programs.
Comment by B — December 6, 2009 @ 5:52 pm
i’m an eight grader who was just checking out a few scool webs when i ran into this website reading it got me scared and hyperventilating what if i dont get into any of my choices or a specialized hs or lagardia. i think its super unfair that kids have to wait till febuary its just not rigth to keep us waiting in the dark like this. i know a few pretty pissed off kids from last year that didnt get into the school of his or her choice because she was 1 point off the specialized test score, she was so mad she just didnt want to try anymore so she just stoped caring for school adn she was lik a top 2 percentile student. the school system needs an upgrade lik now, cause hell were the ones that have to go to that stupid hell hole evry single crappy day! its not right why cant we be given the result within a month or 2 even!
Comment by a pretty scared 8th garder — January 3, 2010 @ 10:25 pm