Thirty Bronx parents gathered in a small Riverdale office suite on Monday evening to discuss the gifted and talented admissions process, following the Department of Education announcement that 45 percent more students qualified for kindergarten “gifted” programs this year. The chatter quickly highlighted the logistical and moral challenges of where to place gifted programs in a socio-economically disparate district.
District 10 is home to Riverdale, a quiet, secluded neighborhood that borders the Hudson River and Westchester County. Residents live in comfortable apartments and large estates hidden by a canopy of tree-covered, lush green lawns. District 10 also includes neighborhoods such as Fordham, Kingsbridge, and Tremont, where there are few trees, public housing, and noisy, congested streets.
This year, District 10 parents can choose among three district-wide gifted programs: PS 24 in Riverdale, PS 7 in Kingsbridge, and PS 54 in Fordham. Some parents say PS 24 is the only logical choice, others disagree.“I clearly would not go to [PS] 7, and definitely not [PS] 54,” said one mom, who asked to remain anonymous. “It’s dangerous. It’s a bad neighborhood…a lot of kids don’t speak English there [at PS 7],” said another PS 24 parent, who did not want to be identified.
The meeting, sponsored by a few active PS 24 and PS 81 parents, was advertised as a G&T informational session, but as one parent pointed out: “It sounds like a lobbying effort against the G&T effort because it’s not at the schools we want…and I find this troubling. Are we ultimately saying we’re not happy unless it’s in our school?”The answer for many parents is yes. “There’s more than 25 percent of the student body [at PS 24] that comes from outside the zone,” said Annmarie Dodd Hunter, a PS 24 parent who helped organize the meeting. “We are trying to establish a local G&T program. Our children live here, and they should go to the school where we live.” As for where high-achieving District 10 kids, who don’t live in Riverdale should go to school, Riverdale parents lacked a clear answer. “What do we do with bright kids in Fordham? Here’s the problem,” said one parent.“They can be bused over here. Their parents want them to come over here,” interjected another parent.
“But I don’t want them to take seats away from kids zoned for 24,” the parent responded. All incoming kindergarteners who score at or above the 97th percentile are eligible for citywide gifted programs located in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens. Those who score at or above the 90th percentile on the tests are guaranteed a space in a district-wide gifted program. Placement is based on a student’s score and how families rank programs – not where a student lives. Details about the application process are spelled out in the DOE’s G&T handbook. Parents complain that because there is no citywide G&T program in the Bronx, many Bronx students who score at or above the 97th percentile opt for district programs instead. “PS 24 could be all children who get 99s and that’s not really equitable,” said Hunter. Parents also mentioned their concern about schlepping a five-year-old across the district to far-away schools, and the dilemma a parent faces when one child qualifies for a gifted program at an out-of-zone school and a sibling doesn’t.Others at the meeting said parents should try to improve all district schools, not just their zoned schools. “I know there are concerns about [PS] 7,” said Tony Cassino, a community activist who has been principal-for-a-day at PS 24 and PS 81. “But, I have no doubt this parent group could form a phenomenal G&T program wherever you put it.”
Ultimately, it is parents who decide whether a G&T program survives. Last year when not enough parents selected PS 54’s gifted program, it did not take in a new gifted class. Some parents at the meeting said they preferred to send their children to a general education program at a high performing school such as PS 24, rather than to a gifted program at a lower-performing school, such as PS 54. In 2008, 44 percent of students at PS 54 passed the state English exams, compared to the 83 percent pass rate at PS 24. This year PS 54 is back on the list of gifted programs offered next fall.“They are offering [PS] 54 as an option again and that’s insulting,” said Damian McShane, whose child qualified for NEST +M, a citywide gifted program, last year. He opted to keep his son in Riverdale because of the three-hour daily commute from the Bronx to the Lower East Side where NEST is located. The DOE does not provide busing for out-of-borough students who attend a citywide program. The ultimate goal for the group of active PS 24 and PS 81 Riverdale parents, who sponsored the forum, is two-fold: they want a citywide gifted program in the Bronx and more gifted programs for the Riverdale community. According to the DOE, a citywide Bronx program is slated to open in 2010.
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The fact is, there are multiple issues for the DOE and parents to consider with G&T. G&T programs are offered in schools where the DOE determines there is available space. At the entry level, placement is based primarily on test scores and ranking of school choices, not where the student is zoned. The G&T program was formulated by the DOE to give more choices of schools/curriculum to students who tested well and achieved higher than the cut-off score. For entry into the G&T program at higher grades, placement is offered depending on the availability of seats in the existing G&T programs. Parents and schools in all districts face the same issues. Having witnessed last year a lot of bitterness on the part of parents whose children did not qualify into the G&T program, or whose children were not placed in their first choice of school, it’s going to be interesting to see what happens this year.
Comment by public school parent — May 5, 2009 @ 4:35 pm
I feel the need to add a few things to round out the quote given by me above.
First, PS 24 is one of the most dynamic and diverse student populations in the city (%: 44 W; 12 B; 32 H; 11 A … according to insideschools’ current profile) … and the school benefits from its deep multicultural roots. It is a source of pride for many families, including mine. Riverdale, too, is more diverse than one may think.
Indeed, District 10 is the largest district in the city. It has varied needs and most Riverdale parents I know understand what we need and care about in our remote corner of the Bronx are pieces of a very complicated puzzle. Attending a new G&T program is one many parents in NYC will face this year; we are not the only ones weighing this option’s risks and it’s wrong to think we are alone. One important part of what was said last night was that establishing a G&T program was not a goal PS 7’s principal had for her school in a recent meeting with Community Board 8 members – it was something that was thrust upon her simply because her school has desks available.
Many parents chose not to identify themselves, I am. I stated last night and I will here again: I am touring PS 7 with an open mind and I hope others do the same. (As for 54, this is not an option for me, have you ever commuted in the Bronx during rush hour?)
Our meeting was hosted, as I said last night, as a “do onto others” gesture. Last year I wished I had someone to share what they knew and had a place I could ask questions freely. Insideschools was a the only resource I had available to me then … and now as my family waits to see if there’s a first grade spot available for our child.
As for the gentleman who found the event to be a set up for a lobbying effort, I left the meeting vocalizing my regret that he felt that way. We simply tried to share what we’ve learned about the citywide and local programs; shared tips we’ve learned (i.e. don’t forget to fill out all district schools or your entry will not be recognized; outer-borough parents have to pay for school bus transportation out of their own pockets, etc.) and what we know about District 10 G&T schools.
If there’s any perceived favor for PS 24, for that I am guilty. It is currently my son’s school and we love it, the decision to have him switch schools is not one we are taking lightly – especially with a younger brother starting kindergarten next year. Something very special will have to sway me from having him leave a school he loves that’s a five minute walk from our front door –and his brother. – ADH
Comment by ADH — May 5, 2009 @ 5:58 pm
A few points that didn’t make the article, as she chose to focus on the more sensational comments from a few individuals made during a 90 minute presentation/discussion:
PS7 is a failing school by any measure. Most parents involved in Parents for Enrichment cited that as their biggest hangup - why is the DOE putting an excelerated program with pretty much all kids from outside its zone in what is a failing school?
Despite this the group has met with the principal, has organized a tour and recomended that parents also visist the school and make up thier own minds.
Parents throughout D10 overwhelmingly rejected the PS 54 option last year - regardless of their race or where they live in the district, the largest in the city. Despite more than enough eligible kids to fill the program, the DOE could not even entice the minimum number of 7 children needed. Its a failing school, parents don’t want to send thier kids to failing schools yet the DOE has designated this school for 2009, hence my comment.
PS24 has enough eligible students to support its own class, and then some. Why should siblings be split up, or children bused when a viable local program exisits within walking distance, not a mile or two down the road?
Parents for Enrichment has been working to expand the PS 24 program for the past year because up until three weeks ago, it was the only program the DOE had in the district. Plus, the school added 120 seats this year by leasing additional space. As of now there is no plan in place to fill those seats.
There is more but at the end of the day, the DOE ignored local politicans and parents. We spent the last year asking them to proactiely address the lack of programs in the district and community. Instead the DOE failed to respond to any parent correspondnace and placed programs to meet thier needs and agenda, not that of local parents.
Tweed has no idea what goes on in this community, and by community I mean district 10. Parents zoned for PS 7 are fleeing the school in huge numbers, thus the extra seats for a G&T program. Programs are placed without local input, without parent involvement. The DOE is out of touch with the communities they serve..
Comment by Damian McShane — May 5, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
““There’s more than 25 percent of the student body [at PS 24] that comes from outside the zone,” said Annmarie Dodd Hunter . . . ”
I’ve seen similar numbers cited in recent Riverdale Review editorials, which I basically don’t trust — is there a publicly available source for this information? Where are the kids coming from, and on what basis are they being admitted to a badly (see 3rd grade) overcrowded neighborhood school?
I know it’s a small sample size, but there isn’t a single kid in my son’s K class that’s from out of the zone, so 25%/~200 non-zoned kids is tough for me to grasp.
Comment by Anonymous — May 5, 2009 @ 9:50 pm
I want to ask this “public school parent” who made the 1st comment, what do you mean? Are you Anna Commitante? You sound exactly like her. If G&T location can be determined so easily, why do we need so many directors in DOE, together with an Office of Portfolio Management? Any 1st grade student can count seats.
You said placement is based on scores and not where the student is zoned. I say this policy was made by DOE because this is the easiest way for them. School zoning policy has worked in this country for so many years, how come it doesn’t work when it comes to G&T program?
You said parents and schools in all districts face the same issues. Do you know how many children and G&T programs we have in district 10? What about District 2 or 3? The issue we are facing is totally different. You sound you enjoyed watching parents frustrated. I don’t think what has happened and will happen this year is interesting at all. It is a serious issue.
We rejected PS 54 last year, not only because this is a failing school, but also because we wouldn’t even have any chance talking to the principal. The principal wouldn’t return phone calls and the voice machine was always full. Finally, we got someone on the phone, but she said, “What can I tell you?”
My daughter is in 1st grade now and is going to 2nd grade in September. She took test in 2007 for Kindergarten G&T and again in 2008 for 1st grade. For both tests, my daughter had never failed, but DOE failed her 2 times already. How many years we could waste before her talent is destroyed? They even ignored my request of reviewing the test score. I agree with what Damian said, DOE is out of touch.
DOE placed students of District 7 in District 2, 4, and 5, because there wasn’t sufficient numbers of qualified students in D 7. Since there is this flexible policy, we suggested placement in acceptable locations in other districts, not at failing schools. Unfortunately DOE doesn’t have any interest in our children and we are not on their agenda.
I apologize I wasn’t able to go to the meeting last night. But I want to say my heart is broken. After another year of disappointment, our family has planed to move away, away from this DOE. It’s a shame that some people don’t have the sense of shame. What make things worse is that these people are in charge of our children’s education.
Comment by XC — May 6, 2009 @ 12:17 am
XC: You know, your statement that “DOE failed you” kind of goes two ways. The DOE kept what it promised to you. It was your decision not to take the offer. I am with ‘public school parent’. It is going to be interesting to listen to all these “why can’t I get what I am asking for” complaints. If the burbs suit you better, you always have that choice. I for one will stick around.
Comment by Clemens — May 6, 2009 @ 7:34 am
I have just returned from a tour at PS 7 and I’m still in a bit of shock: I was impressed at every turn. The school feels like a charter school … there’s definite thinking outside of the box and every move seems designed to empower students to become a well-rounded individuals. Suprised? I was.
The staff was warm and inventive. Administration tries to take a “proactive” approach to problem solving … they did not dodge tough parent questions, they answered with candor. Children’s artwork and projects adorn every hallway … sometimes reminding me of my tour of Anderson last year.
The school is in the midst of change, the G&T program is just one part of it. Before judging a school by a Google search alone, I urge all parents who have to prioritize this school on their child’s G&T admission form to at least take a look and see PS 7 for themselves.
Comment by ADH — May 6, 2009 @ 11:35 am
RE: ““There’s more than 25 percent of the student body [at PS 24] that comes from outside the zone,” said Annmarie Dodd Hunter . . . ”
No, I don’t have a student population plan in front of me … but I do attend parent meetings and consider myself an active parent and out of zone numbers are often cited at official gatherings, especially when overcrowding is discussed. This year’s kindergarten does not have it’s own self-contained special education class, so you automatically are not seeing this population. Please keep in mind that besides G&T, students also come to the school for NCLB and for special education programs. Combined, from what I understand, they make up a considerable portion of PS 24.
Comment by ADH — May 6, 2009 @ 11:45 am
To XC:
I am not Anna Commitante. I am a parent of a child who attends public school. If I sound like the DOE Director of the G&T program, then it might be because I am a parent who keeps informed by attending PA meetings, CEC meetings, following the NYCDOE website, and even calling the DOE offices when I have a specific question. I do not enjoy watching parents being frustrated at all. In my personal situation, I have been frustrated by my child’s school administration and the DOE over the last 2 years. However, I have learnt to pick my battles and I work with the hand thatI have been dealt.
I do not defend the DOE’s decisions in how they identify G&T locations, or how they place children in the G&T program. Also, no-one denies that many parents will be unhappy and even angry with the schools that their children will be placed in. However, lest we forget, when parents filled out the Request for Testing form for their child, the handbook spells out the rules for eligibility and placement in the G&T program. Another thing too, as Clemens pointed out, if a child is eligible for the G&T program, the parent fills out an application form for the schools they will consider, and based on the application, the DOE makes an offer of placement for the child, and the parent either accepts or declines the offer. The DOE does not force a child to go to a G&T program they don’t like, and the child can remain in Gen. Ed. in his/her zoned school.
In your case, you ask how many years could you waste before your daughter’s talent is destroyed? I would think you would not need to waste any time at all and your daughter’s talent is not necessarily destroyed. As her parent, you can do a lot to help her. In my case, I am not very impressed with the calibre of my child’s teacher, and my child is in a 1st grade district G&T, so I am personally tutoring my child in math, once my child demonstrates the capability to handle the more advanced topics.
Comment by public school parent — May 6, 2009 @ 11:59 am
We do not have a citywide program on Staten Island either. It is a logistic nightmare just thinking about traveling to NYC with one child while the other is on SI (our daughter scored in the 99th percentile). I feel soooo guilty but what can I do?
Comment by Staten Island Mom — May 6, 2009 @ 4:57 pm
i hear that there’s a pretty severe bullying situation at PS 24. True? is the principal ignores bullying? are the g&t kids walking around with targets on them?
Comment by Anonymous — May 6, 2009 @ 8:52 pm
To Clemens: Thanks for the reminding. I didn’t forget we decided not to take the offer. If I buy something, I wouldn’t want a broken piece. If I was promised of something precious, especailly by someone I counted on, I wish it would at least have a little value.
Here is the fact. In 2007-08, District 10 grade 1 student enrollment was 4132, G&T program 1 (28 seats). District 1, student 902, G&T 2. D2, student 2312, G&T 5. D 3, student 1447, G&T 4. Yes, this is very interesting.
Comment by xc — May 6, 2009 @ 10:45 pm
Clemens - I want to provide the best education possible for my child adn the DOE should watn the same. The DOE works for me. The DOE agenda should be to educate out children in local schools, or at the very least, in the best atmosphere possible. What the DOE has done here, is situate programs based on thier needs, not the needs to the community. that is wrong.
When the beauracracy sets the agenda and is allowed to operate without scrutiny, the system has failed.
Comment by DMC — May 7, 2009 @ 6:59 pm
I’m a parent of a soon to be 5 year old who will be starting her first year of “big kid school” my wife and I both live in Riverdale and we love the area. We’ve been going back and forth about the schools ever since we got our letter telling us our child made the G&T. As i search for any information that my give me a clear understanding of what to expect I’ve realized that my kid will not get into the school of our choice:(. My child scored well but did not meet the 97 percentile and from the looks of it I will be forced to bus my child to PS 7. We don’t have the money for Private school and to be honest I was not that ALL impressed with PS 81. What can I do? My wife and I will be active members of the PTA and other groups to ensure our child has every chance but why is it that I feel that my child will be pushed aside because she didn’t score in the 97 percentile? can somebody with more info PLEASE HELP?
Comment by Dad looking for help — May 9, 2009 @ 11:44 pm
#14…email your questions to apae.nyc@gmail.com, it’s the website for the local parent group that’s been dealing with g&t issues, we’ll get someone to answer or share what we know.
Comment by Anonymous — May 10, 2009 @ 10:32 am
Thanks #15 any feedback will be great!
Does anybody know the average percentile scores?
I guess what I really want to know is how many kids just missed scoring in the 97 percentile. My kid scored 96.
Comment by Dad looking for help — May 10, 2009 @ 12:04 pm
My daughter used to attend PS56. The school had nice parent-teacher workshops. The school did not ask for donations, but gave many free trips, books and manipulatives. My daughter got accepted into a G&T program. This made me happy, but she had to commute to Riverdale every day. The school’s workshops were not as great as PS 56. The school kept on asking for donations and charged $8.00 for each trip. In some ways, the school atmosphere was nicer, but I miss the advantages. From an administrative point of view, it is true that my daughter left PS 56 and is no longer entitled to its services. Nevertheless, my daughter did not leave the school because our family wanted to; she left the school because she took a test that placed her elsewhere. It would be nice if there was a way of being in the program without fully losing memebership in PS56.
Comment by George Jacob — May 10, 2009 @ 4:37 pm