HS applications due Dec. 4: How to rank the schools
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Dec. 4 is the date when high school applications are due to school guidance counselors. If you’re like the average New York City public middle school parent, you have spent the fall accompanying your 8th grader to school tours and open houses, you’ve perused the thick high school directory and you’ve bookmarked Insideschools’ noteworthy high school profiles and ref+erred to them regularly. And if you’re like the average 8th grader, you’ve been agonizing with your friends about where you’ll end up next year. But now you must sit down and make some decisions.
Our advice: Be very careful drawing up your list of high school choices. You will be assigned to a high school based on how you rank your schools and how the schools rank you. You may list up to 12 choices, but you will receive only one offer. If you have taken the exam for the specialized high schools or auditioned for LaGuardia High School of Music and Art and the Performing Arts, you may have a choice between one of those schools, should you be accepted, and your list of 12. There are also a few charter schools to consider which have a separate application and lottery. Apply only to schools you are willing to attend. If you get assigned to a school you hate but have listed it on your application, it will be very hard to get placed in a different school.
Here are some questions for families to consider:
- Small school or large? Small schools usually offer more personal attention and a sense of community. Teachers are more likely to get to know you, and fewer kids get lost. Small schools tend to be safer. However, large schools tend to have more sports teams, more foreign language offerings, more Advanced Placement courses and more services for students who don’t speak English well, or who need special education services. Large schools may also have more diversity, not only economic and racial diversity, but also a range of kids of different abilities (and classes designed to accommodate them).
- Fast-track or laid-back? Some schools pile on the homework, and the kids are very serious, hard-working and a bit competitive. Other schools are more laid back and encourage kids to relax a bit. There’s no right answer here. Think about what’s best for you. Do you want to have the most rigorous academic experience possible? Or do you want to have a chance to excel in a less-demanding school?
- New school or well-established? It’s nice to go to a school with a proven track record. And some of the newest small schools don’t have well established guidance offices for college admissions or relationships with college admissions officers. However, when faced with the choice of an overcrowded, failing neighborhood school, and a new untested small school, in general, our advice is go with the small one, if you feel comfortable with the theme and the leadership. You’ll get much more personalized attention and a chance to shine. (See our article on how to judge a new school.)
- Theme school or well-rounded curriculum? This may sound obvious, but don’t go to a theme school if you’re not interested in the theme. If you’re not passionate about the arts, don’t go to a performing arts school. Also: Some of the themes are gimmicks and exist in name only. Be sure the academics are solid, whatever the theme.
- How long is the commute? Be sure to take a subway (or bus) ride to the school before you submit your application to see if the commute is doable. Think about what it will be like in the rain and snow, or coming home late in the evening after a sports event or a school play. Way too many students find after a few days of school that a school is too far away.
- What is the quality of teaching? Look for teachers who seem to like their work and the school. Check out the statistics on teacher qualifications, absences, and mobility on the school’s report card. Ideally, there will be a balance of experience and youthful enthusiasm on a faculty, and a sense of collegiality among the staff.
- What is the school culture? Is there a lot of pressure to conform, fashion snobbery, or social pressure to drink or take drugs? Parents have to realize that sex and drugs are in every high school in the city, if not in the country. But if you find a school where kids are interested in learning, you’re more likely to steer clear of trouble. Talk to older students. Kids will tell you if a school has a lot of drugs, if kids cut class, if being a good student is cool or shunned. Kids will know whether teachers care, and if counselors know their names.
- Does your child have special needs? Families of students with special education needs may want to check out a new resource on the Department of Education’s website, Frequently Asked Questions for students with disabilities applying to high school. The document gives information about rights and resources available to students with disabilities. It was produced after a grassroots organization, Parents for Inclusive Education, in conjunction with New York Lawyers for the Public Interest issued a report noting the lack of high school choices for special education students.
Your favorite should come first. You don’t need to play guessing games or set up an elaborate strategy. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by ranking your top choice number one on your list because schools won’t see how you ranked them.
However if you are applying to a school for which you do not qualify — say you want to apply to a school that accepts only Manhattan residents and you live in Queens — you are wasting a spot on your list if you put it down. Likewise, if a school looks for students with an 85 average or above and your GPA is 70, your chances of getting accepted are slim to none.
What about the schools that tell you, you must put them first, or they won’t consider you? According to the Department of Education, that policy was done away with several years ago. Schools no longer see who lists them first, and they have to come up with their own ranking of students from first to last.
More tips for kids
- Don’t be talked into applying to a school that you do not want to attend. Make sure your parent signs off on your list and don’t allow the guidance counselor to add other choices without consulting your parent.
- Don’t list 12 schools if there are not 12 schools or programs that you want to apply to. However, the more choices, the better your chances of making a match.
- Many large schools have several programs. If you really want to attend a certain school, apply to more than one program.
- If you have a zoned school, it will be printed on your application. (Manhattan does not, Staten Island does, as do parts of the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens). You are not guaranteed acceptance there unless you list it on your application.
- What if you and your parents disagree? We think parents should get involved in the selection but in the end it’s the kid who has to go to the school. Try to talk it through until parent and kid both come to the same conclusion.
- Choose your school based on what you want for yourself. This can be hard to do, especially if your friends all seem to be interested in one popular school and want to go there. It’s likely that friends will go to different schools — no school can accept every student who applies, even if they’re qualified, talented, and great students. Trust that you will make new friends in high school, whether or not you go with friends from middle school.
More new schools for 2009
If you’re still not certain you’ve found the school that’s right for you, there will mostly likely be a new crop of schools opening in September 2009. Check our calendar and the Department of Education’s website for updates in early 2009. There will be school fairs introducing all the schools.
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This is great information, but leaves me anxious in one particular: “Know the school culture.” How do we find out how prevalent drugs are at the school? How do we know if the kids treat each other respectfully? Or if the school demands that the kids treat eachother respectfully, or if they shrug it off. I’ve already been to all the open houses, and I never asked a student these questions. Maybe I should have, but I don’t think I had the opportunity, nor did it feel appropriate. The kids were selling the school.
Comment by Anonymous — November 17, 2009 @ 1:20 pm
I am also wondering, in reference to your “fast-track or laid-back” paragraph, what schools are considered “good,” progressive, intellectually inspiring, but also “laid-back”? I’ve researched hundreds of schools in NY, and I don’t think I’ve found one of these. Virtually every school tour I’ve attended has said the kids should expect three hours of homework a night. I guess I’ve been looking at the “fast-track” but what else is there? Perhaps Millennium is a little more laid back but still good? It’s not a great example because unless one lives in the area it’s extremely hard to get into.
Comment by Anonymous — November 17, 2009 @ 1:58 pm
My suggestion - If you want to know about the school, stop by at dismissal. Talk to the students - see what they say. Also, talk to the local businesses - see what they think of the students and the students behavior.
Comment by Anonymous — November 18, 2009 @ 12:03 pm
Its frustrating to think that after all the open houses and essays and tours and interviews our family has participated in, the students’ school choice is still ultimately decided by a computer.
NYC Public High School selection is vast and varied and students should not be forced to come to a decision of which school to rank before they actually see which schools want them.
NYC DOE should consider making the process similar to that of NYC independent (private) schools or national college/university applications. To those you can apply freely to many or a few and get as many acceptances or rejections. From that final list, students can then get a feel for which school wants them. The student can them make a decision that will best serve him/her for the next 4 years.
A “match” as it is coined by the DOE, should not be solely determined by a percentile rank, a single audition or interview, or a family’s attendance at an open house - plus the few other factors based on the school’s and students’ respective criteria. It should be a decision for each school and each student. -With some structure/guidelines from the DOE to ensure all’s fair.
As it is now, NYC Public High Schools AND students must bow to the whim of the almighty computer to decide for us. In this case, where is the choice?
Comment by Elizabeth — November 18, 2009 @ 12:51 pm
@Elizabeth…the decisions are NOT “made by a computer.” The decision is made by parent and child setting their preferences and priorities. A computer will be used to process the information as it was provided. Don’t make provovative statements that are based on falsehood or lack of understanding. It only confuses people.
Comment by Tailor Made — November 19, 2009 @ 8:53 pm
I know, like 5, that the decision is not made by the computer, but there’s truth in 4’s underlying sentiment. Ultimately, most of us feel that where our child gets in to school is out of our control, and out of our children’s control, too. We can’t even rely on good grades and scores–there don’t seem to be enough spots in the right schools.
Comment by Anonymous — November 20, 2009 @ 9:27 am
Agree with #4, the choices should be made from the list of schools which actually want you and ready to accept you. It has to be more educated and more realistic choice. Right now it is more like blind guess.
Comment by Anonymous — November 20, 2009 @ 10:57 am
How to rank the schools? That’s easy enough for me, but there are only four schools (other than specialized) that I would like to see my child at (we aren’t disctrict 2). There are two or three more schools we have visited that may almost be ok, but I really won’t be happy if that’s what my daughter gets in to. Is it better to list them all, or better to take my chances in an extra round?
Comment by Anonymous — November 25, 2009 @ 9:36 am
How do the schools know which children to rank? There are thousands of 8th graders applying to high school and the schools can’t be expected to rate all of them. How do the know who is applying to their school so they can rank them for a match?
Comment by Anonymous — November 25, 2009 @ 10:32 am
They get a list of those students who put them on their list, with their grades and scores.
Comment by Anonymous — November 25, 2009 @ 12:42 pm
Re #9 and #10–
So, the schools get a list of all the children that put them on their application anywhere from 1st through 12th choice and then rank them?
On the listing for each school in the directory the schools list the ‘2008 Total Applicants’. Is that the total number of children that ranked the school anywhere from first to twelfth - or is it the total number of first choice only?
Comment by Anonymous also — November 25, 2009 @ 12:58 pm
#11, it is the total number of applications that listed the school anywhere, 1-12. The schools ARE NOT told where each student ranks them, only that they appeared somewhere on the form.
Comment by Roberta — November 25, 2009 @ 2:34 pm
In a partial answer to the last few posts, I would like to mention that at an open house for a high school in Brooklyn, the parents were told that this particular school does not rank ALL the students that list it on their applications. They told us they have about 1200 seats, they get around 4000 names, and they rank about half of them. They urged parents not to list the school if their children don’t meet the admissions criteria (gpa minimum in this case), but it was not clear at all whether they would actually rank all students who DO meet their criteria and who list the school. The presentation left me with the question that #9 asked: how do they decide which students they will bother to rank?
Comment by bkparent — November 27, 2009 @ 10:28 am
I am the parent of a bright district 3 student with 3s and 4s on state tests, honor roll and great addition to any high school. With so many “district 2 priority” schools in manhattan, how should we factor that into prioritizing application rank? Should we drop those schools down the list because district 2 is so big? Aside from Beacon, I feel like district 3 has few solid choices, and no district 3 priority of their own.
Comment by DJ_UWSparent — November 27, 2009 @ 10:53 am
#14 You should list them in the true order of how you like them. Your listing of a district 2 school near the top doesn’t mean you have less of a chance of getting into a school listed beneath it.
Comment by Anonymous — November 27, 2009 @ 5:08 pm
Is the 9th grade high school application (for current 9th graders) due on December 4th also?
Comment by Hi — November 30, 2009 @ 11:05 pm
#15 is correct, unless there are more than 12 schools you are honestly interested in ranking. If you’re looking at 10 schools, and you literally have no chance of getting into your third choice school, you will get exactly the same match if you list your top choice, second choice, fourth choice, etc. as if you list them honestly; if your chances aren’t literally zero, just very slim, then you will be better off with listed honestly.
Comment by dWj — December 3, 2009 @ 1:48 pm
Now that the HS applications are in - when do the High schools get the list of children that listed them on their application?
(how long does it take for the DOE to send the schools the names of the children — and what other information does the DOE send to the schools for each child?)
Comment by Confused — December 8, 2009 @ 3:13 pm
How much influence do Middle School guidance counselors have in the high school’s selection process particularly those high schools that have interviews, tests, auditions etc. Is the high school’s ranking done solely on the basis of what the high school sees in terms of the child’s record and their performance at the high school’s tests, interviews etc or are the high school’s seeking more personalized recommendations from MS guidance counselors????? A parent whose child attends a different school than the one my child attends shared with me a comment made by her child’s guidance counselor that suggests that that guidance counselor is making “recommendations” to some high schools……
Comment by Curious — December 12, 2009 @ 4:03 pm
The principal of my child’s middle school said she used to be able to call the principal of some high schools to recommend students - but no longer. It seems that guidance counselors are obsolete in many aspects - they can’t even keep up with all of the new schools. If guidance counselors are on top of things in their job they are helpful - otherwise they can be harmful.
Comment by It continues... — December 14, 2009 @ 11:24 pm